Outpost and Resources Followup Q&A, 7/30/2013

Discussion in 'State of Decay News' started by Undead Sanya, Jul 30, 2013.

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  1. Undead Sanya

    Undead Sanya Here To Help

    After this, I have to stop with the topic for a bit, and let the guys finish working on fixes :) I hope this helps.

    [Wondering where the original Q&A is? http://forums.undeadlabs.com/showthread.php?28921-Outpost-and-Resources-Q-amp-A-7-26-2013]

    Q: You say that traps are set in your outpost’s "safe zone" and you say that they can be triggered by your car... does that include your survivors? Other NPC's?

    A: All of the above.

    Q: Does this (other survivors looting our stuff) apply only to OUTPOSTS that we haven't fully looted? Or does it mean that any building that we have entered might be empty the next time we come back? Or does it only apply to buildings that we have looted at least 1 container in? Or does it only apply to containers that we have opened but left the contents inside of? You get where I'm going with this.

    A: All buildings, and containers that you have opened but left the contents inside of.

    Q: “The resources have to be taken by your survivors to your home base (which is also where the materials are being consumed from, not your home base).” This confused me. Does it mean we have to pick up a rucksack of resource generated by the outpost on one of the containers in the outpost or this is what 'theoretically' happens but not visible?

    A: Theoretically but not visibly.

    Q: If fuel generation doesn’t work as stated in the Q&A, why does my game say a +3 every day for fuel, and I notice that my fuel stock goes up by that much the next I play?

    A: That’s a damned good question and I’m glad you asked. Now, if there are no more questions... I’m kidding. Okay. It’s not hooked up in the place where the other outpost stuff is hooked up. If you are indeed getting fuel, and it’s not a display problem, we need to do more digging. Thank you for communicating.

    Q: [Note from Sanya: Formatted this with quotes because my answer has multiple parts.]

    That's a display bug fixed in TU3, we hope.


    Here is the math, but first, a little speech.

    Back on my first ever community gig, I used to get in raging fights with some colleagues over whether or not we should post math formulas.

    The arguments FOR posting them (the side I am naturally on, in case it wasn’t blindingly clear) are: that more knowledge never hurts; players are going to reverse engineer the game anyway; players can’t tell what is and isn’t a bug without knowing the intention; for heaven’s sake, it’s a game, not a matter of international security.

    The arguments AGAINST posting them (a side I’ve at least learned to understand) are: the formulas are part of a proprietary system and it’s none of our competition’s business; it will open up a can of worms and/or cause confusion when we refuse to release other formulas down the road; most importantly, the formulas never exist in a vacuum, and without listing out all the contributing factors (impossible, by the way, without just making the game open source) players won’t get the exact numbers.

    That last one, by the way, is the one I care about. You need to be aware that there are always other contributing factors that I don’t even know about in a game with this level of complexity. When I give you the calculation the game is using here, I’m pulling that calculation out of its context. Complicating matters further are the known issues with the UI correctly reporting things.

    In other words, I cannot guarantee you can use any formula I ever give you to get a precise number, and that will remain true even after the interface is fixed.

    So, why am I bothering?

    Because philosophically, I think it’s important that we back up our oft-stated goal of making you partners as far as possible. Because broad outlines can lead to understanding, even if the details aren’t exact. Because you can extrapolate a pretty decent picture of what a person looks like just from their bones. Because I trust you to have read all this without skipping and therefore I’m not going to have to deal with anyone saying “I didn’t get that exact number so therefore BLARGH SNARFLE BUUUURGH.” It’ll be close enough.

    Material usage is (# facilities + ((# infestations in world + home size) / 10)) where outposts count as one facility. The church is size 2, the houses are 3 and the warehouse/rodeo is 4.

    Not bugged. Ammo is one of the more complicated resources in the world, because it is constantly in use by your community, and how fast it is used depends on the emotional state of your community and how well you’ve been keeping up with things. (This is why the game is not just a predictable pull-the-strings game, but a world simulation. This is also why two players can have drastically different results to report without either of them being wrong or bugged.)

    So first read my giant caveat up there. Done? Awesome. Here we go.

    Shaun says: “Your home wants (3 + population + # infestations / 2) ammo per day. We then calculate the "confidence" ((5 * ammo stockpile) / ammo wanted) clamped between 0 and 5. Ammo usage is then population / (6 - ammo confidence). So if the NPCs are feeling threatened and you don't have ammo, they use less ammo. However if you're meeting their ammo demands, they're going to use it fighting zombies.”

    Q: [link to a post with a series of images showing game data pulled using a tool]

    A: *cough* Just a gentle reminder that modding your save game is against the Xbox TOS, and that I therefore cannot host conversations about it. With that said, we are aware of the various tools out there for hacking your save file, and I would really appreciate it if you would not post screenshots that are recognizably from those tools, okay? Help me out, here.

    Okay, moving on. Let me just quote Shaun: “It’s a UI issue. The internal numbers he's showing get recalculated right before we actually take them away. So they are correct at that moment and then start to deviate. However, at that point they're only used for display in the UI.”

    Q: I am at the church with 4 outpost. When I created the outposts, the houses were fully cleared (without any resources inside). The question is: Will I get 12 ammo per GAME DAY or REAL DAY? The post says that it's every game day, but I was playing for 5 hours (about 2 and a half game days) and I haven't noticed my ammo resource increasing or my materials decreasing. Is it a bug that will be fixed, or have I misunderstood?

    A: Real day. There are different things combining to make this hard to see from a player perspective - one, the UI issues we’re actively addressing, and two, how much ammo your survivors are using. See above stuff about the formulas.

    Q: “You get a resource bonus when you move homes. Depending on the size of your new home.” (Quote from another player.) Wait... then given how moving has given me far more resources than outposts have, simply rapidly switching back and forth between bases is consequently a means towards generating infinite resources. And given that it requires but does not cost materials, it's also a influence to resource conversion, and increases the unbalanced priority Materials have.

    A: That is correct, and we hope to address it in the future, but we think the display issues are a higher priority and will benefit more players.
    ULTRA 1st, Conor08 and BOWi like this.
  2. e5futter

    e5futter Here To Help

    I have learned some stuff today. Thanks Sanya. :)
    TacticalRx and Griffonclaw39 like this.
  3. DPS lfg PST

    DPS lfg PST Starting Off

    Good to know about the outposts going to ammo by default. That's always the worst resource for me to get. Thanks!
  4. Chrace123

    Chrace123 Starting Off

    Does the use of ammo by your surivivor community generate actual ammo inside their inventory? In my current game (a fresh start post TU2) I have found that equipping survivors in the community with certain firearms 'generates' the appropriate ammo type inside their backpack the 'next' game day. I found this to be happening with shotguns. Sources of shotgun shells seemed to be rare (Wilkerson's didn't have stock to trade for) and I only rarely found them inside uncleared sites and at the other Survivor Enclaves I have good influence with. Since I had equipped some survivors in my community with shotguns (due to not often using them for missions) I was keeping track of shotgun ammo for use by my main survivor I used to clear Infestations. So I have been keeping close tabs on shotgun shell usage. So I was surprised when checking a survivor equipped with a shotgun and found they now had 6 shotgun shells in their backpack inventory. This has happened with multiple surivors and over multiple game days. This 'resupply' of their backpack does not reduce my shells in the Locker inventory but does seem to be triggered by daily available Ammo being used from the Community Stockpile. If I do not have the survivor 'use' those shells, or do not have them place the shells into the Locker they do not get a 'resupply' the next game day. If they use or move the shells, they receive a fresh load of 6 shells.

    I have not attempted to replicate this with other ammo types. I don't believe this to be a game bug but I wonder if any other players have seem anything similiar.
  5. xr1st1anos

    xr1st1anos Got Your Back

    You're a legend Sanya! And Shaun! That was a reply and a half. ;)

    As for the other matter, I knew it would be recognizable to some(hence I used it and as it was the functional and updated variety). I wanted to see what was in there so I've actually only used it for this purpose of testing and that I understand so 'done and done'...
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  6. Thorsfew

    Thorsfew Starting Off

    Cool, when can we sit the exam?
    Say 60% pass rate.
  7. jwarner

    jwarner Starting Off

    Thanks for answering my question! And yes, I kept getting fuel. If it helps any for your digging, I bought the game on Day1 in the US. And got TU1 (which actually had worked for me), then TU2.
  8. sgallaty

    sgallaty Starting Off

    That is a lot of detail. We appreciate it.
  9. I got reposted! I realize my front running comment was poorly advised, given that it's impossible to really know how any of this is working if the numbers are reporting incorrectly. Also that the large paragraph was hard to understand, slightly mad, and really addressed to the other players. (hint, it meant you could probably figure out how this stuff works through observation). Still, I got into the FAQ! I think there should be an achievement in the game for that.

    Follow up question. Without having to reveal any more of your proprietary New Math, Can you say what Material use is being influenced by? There's a lot of questions about that resource specifically and indeed, it's use seems to be one of the most erratic. I'm guessing that at the least, Material use is influenced by number of facilities and outposts, and again resource generating outposts. Am I close? Just tell me hot or cold.

    Or don't. I already got into the FAQ I'm happy.
  10. Dantron

    Dantron Here To Help

    Dantron eagerly awaits for UL to release the robot to pie ratio formula. :)
    RobertH5996 and Conor08 like this.
  11. Coyote

    Coyote Got Your Back

    Coyote eagerly awaits Dantron using his translation programs to explain to Coyote the math in Sanya's post. Because, as is wel documented, coyotes are bad at math. Unlike octopi and platypi. Because both, in plural form, have pie and are therefore higher end beings.
  12. Wait, the traps can be set off by you?

    I'm really confused, cause I drive through my safe zones all the time.
  13. Coyote

    Coyote Got Your Back

    Me too. So does this basically mean that safe zones aren't inherently safe for anyone? And if we CAn run over our own traps are there any ways we can mark them on the map for avoidance?
  14. xr1st1anos

    xr1st1anos Got Your Back

    I think what it meant is the resetting of traps not setting it off.
  15. XlFrostBitelX

    XlFrostBitelX Starting Off

    I'd like clarification on the traps as well. I don't see any mines or anything on the road and the closest I get to "setting them off" is by running over the zeds that are on fire because of the traps.
  16. sgallaty

    sgallaty Starting Off

    I don't like getting "Trust lost - ally in blast radius" on outpost mines =(
  17. Dantron

    Dantron Here To Help

    Dantron explains stuff to Coyote. Coyote becomes hyper-intelligent. Coyote spends too much time chasing road runners.
    RobertH5996 likes this.
  18. aepop10

    aepop10 Starting Off

    I never knew all this about outposts...awesome.
  19. Doctor Invictus

    Doctor Invictus Got Your Back

    I made some comments about post-TU3 Outposts here.
  20. still dosent answer my question on the pickup trucks and why they cant be used to transport goods
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