Weapon damage values

Discussion in 'For PC Players Only' started by QMJS, Mar 25, 2014.

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  1. QMJS

    QMJS Famous

    It's one of those suspended-disbelief accomodations that has to be made when playing a game... even in SOD or Breakdown 1, the number of zombies in the radius that could hear a typical rifle shot would be immense, to the level that it would make gun use nearly always fatal because an army of zombies would charge to the area.

    There is a complicated table of ammunition types and suppressor results at http://silencertalk.com/results.htm, and there are some interesting numbers there.

    The .22 rifle tested was 160.7 dB unsuppressed, with best commercial suppressor reducing that to 117.7 dB. That is the quietest result listed, from a variety of ammunition types. For comparison, standing next to someone using a chainsaw or jackhammer (1 meter or so) is rated between 100-110 dB. So, even suppressed weapons are very loud... the primary purpose is to push the levels down beyond the point where the risk of instantaneous hearing loss is common. Movie-level quiet weapons just simply don't exist, outside of custom-designed weapons using specialised subsonic ammunition- all of which results in vastly reduced range and impact performance.

    Also, for mechanical design reasons, revolvers and shotguns are typically not able to be effectively suppressed. Those few with some success have been custom-designed with noise reduction in mind, not something that can be added to any available weapon.
  2. BiggusD

    BiggusD Got Your Back

    Yeah but in the defense of gunshots compared to a jet engine, chainsaw or jackhammer, those are sustained sounds while a gunshot is one soundwave. It is hard to pinpoint exactly where a gunshot is coming from, with the echoes and quick spread of it and all.

    They could have simulated the zombies' attention to sound so that they can't pinpoint the origin of the sound to a tee like they do now, unless they are fairly close to it or immediately see the human. The rest, for instance from 100-200 meters up to a kilometer radius would start moving in the general direction of the sound. Those beyond that would turn around and start shambling until something else caught their attention.

    However, as you say this would make guns pretty useless overall at least on missions in un-controlled areas as long as the game use a spawn mechanism instead of populating the game world with a finite number of zombies and then rather have repopulation event happening at intervals. This wouldn't work in Trumbull Valley as it is so closed-off, but a new area, for instance a number of small towns around a larger city would support the idea of giant herds of zombies coming out of the city now and then.

    Are military helmets bullet proof by the way?
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  3. QMJS

    QMJS Famous

    Firing a single shot probably wouldn't pinpoint your location, but firing three or four shots probably would be good enough to determine direction to within 30-45 degrees... close enough that not all of them would end up at the right location, but the area would have more zombies in it. Perhaps a mechanism of adding 10% to spawn density for every shot, with a 15 minute cooldown to return to normal, would simulate it fairly well with the current spawn system. A shot or two is not going to make a huge difference, but firing off a 30 round clip is going to swarm the area with zombies.

    As for helmets, the answer is yes and no... depending on range and bullet size, and newer ones in testing are considerably more effective than older versions. For a long time, military body armor and helmets were not really designed to stop bullets at all, just fragments from explosives and artillery. Improvements over the years have made them much more effective, but not to the point where they are always going to stop every shot. None are as effective as the ones these zombies are wearing, which can take multiple high caliber shots at close range.

    Military bullets are relatively small... 7.62mm is a .30 caliber round, 5.56mm is actually slightly smaller than a .22. However, while smaller, they typically also have longer, necked casings which give the bullet greater speed, and therefore more force than similar sized standard ammunition.

    Keeping a record/database of each zombie in the area would push the memory requirement way way up... and the calculations for what they are doing, even just as simple as position and movement direction, would really bog down processing. It would work better with something like a maximum number per zone or region, spawnning as they do now up to a maximum limit, then there would be a time delay before more could start appearing in that zone.
  4. BiggusD

    BiggusD Got Your Back

    I am sure that with better optimalization and scripting intended to simulate the zombies that are beyond visibility, a persistent zombie population could drain less resources than the current system.

    I am thinking of a sort of hybrid system; if you are in Downtown Marshall, the zombies there are persistent while the zombies in West Marshall are semi-persistent (each "population" is simulated as a unit with a diameter of, say, a 100 meters), and the ones in Fairfield are fully simulated as a number X in the whole town. This way, as you close in on a simulated population unit their actual position in the 3d world is calculated much like the spawning now, but if you kill all of them they are gone from the game world.

    This way, we would normally clear out the zed population in our immediate area fairly early on. It would be a good strategic decision to use ammo, time and effort to do so - especially the freaks. Now it is pointless because you can just leave and come back and the Juggernaut/Feral blocking you from loot would be gone.

    Then there would be repopulation events at irregular intervals, and the zombie herd would come from one or more places outside the map with a new, finite number of zeds. You would of course fight those and maybe win that battle - but the other areas where you have not cleared them out would now have a much denser population. The resources at your current Base would eventually drain, and you'd have to move on. Hence, progression, difficulty increase and a logical storyline necessity all in one.

    Of course, maybe someone would opt to stay at the safe place and rather loot farther and farther away, but I am sure it would be possible to come up with a sensible leave/stay scenario that would discourage this other than the obvious longer treks. I think that, rather than having zombies climb over the fences (which requires intellect), they should pound at them. All day, all night, eventually destroying the walls of the house/fence. If enough zombies pile up outside they could destroy the fence/walls completely. A finite number of repairs before no amount of duct tape and chewing gum could hold it together any longer could thus be the real reason why no place is really permanent.

    I feel that getting rid of the current spawning system is perhaps the single most important improvement UL can make to their franchise. Playing a game is living in a story, and random spawning of enemies is a rather cheap plot device intended to keep the excitement high. Killing a zombie does not resolve anything. If instead they were finite, unique threats, going on a zombie hunt would actually make sense. Guns could actually make as much noise as they really do, because those who come running towards you will be all the ones in the area and once they are gone it is all clear (if you survive). Killing zombies wouldn't just be a pastime - it would be a central plot point!

    To me, this suggestion is a step forward from the current system. Since I trust that UL mange to keep the game as streamlined and gameplay-centric as it is, I have no worries that bigger/more complex is still better when they eventually release the follow-up of State of Decay (single player).
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  5. Uglysori

    Uglysori Starting Off

    Not sure what the rules are on resurrecting threads but I found QMJS's original post so useful and I am sure there are some other OCD people out there that would like to know the damage values of some of the Lifeline and CLEO weapons so they can figure out the "best" guns. I recently dove into the objects pak file with the updated version of SoD Tools. I will be listing out the stand-outs for me in terms of damage beyond the norm for said caliber guns. All the new melee weapons added as far as I can tell do the standard 80 dmg that most melee weapons do so I will only be listing firearms.

    SMG_93R damage 200 max effective rng = 20m
    SMG_Bz75Auto damage 200 max effective rng = 20m
    SMG_Evo3 damage 110 max effective rng = 14m
    SMG_G18C damage 125 max effective rng = 15m
    SMG_TacP damage 120 max effective rng = 15m
    Rifle_T21_Carbine 220 max effective rng = 24m
    Revolver_Model986 damage 200 max effective rng = 20m

    .357 cal
    Revolver_Cleo damage 230 max effective rng = 24m (higher caliber .44 revolvers reach out to 26m. The 50cal ones reach a ridiculous 30m & 45m respectively between the two variants)

    .40 cal
    Pistol_Cleo damage 220 max effective rng = 24m (range for most pistols of this caliber is 20m)

    .45 cal
    Rifle_Wingate damage 200 max effective rng = 35m (basically it's statistical similar to the .45 Justice except it is permanently silenced with a 5m sound range and "0" disturbancevalue but I figured people would be curious.)
    SMG_Cleo damage 250 max effective rng = 20m

    AssaultRifle_552_Commando damage 210 max effective rng = 23m
    AssaultRifle_552_CS damage 210 max effective rng = 26m
    AssaultRifle_G36C damage 210 max effective rng = 30m
    MachineGun_Cleo damage 220 max effective rng = 25m
    SMG_LAR15 damage 225 max effective rng = 21m
    AssaultRifle_Cleo damage 250 max effective rng = 24m

    AssaultRifle_G3 damage 325 max effective rng = 35m
    Rifle_Cleo damage 370 max effective rng = 34m
    Rifle_M110_SASS damage 350 max effective rng = 34m
    Rifle_M14_Talon damage 325 max effective rng = 35m
    Rifle_SVT40 damage 315 max effective rng = 34m

    Shotgun_1887_Short damage 110 max effective rng = 8m
    Shotgun_87_Aggro damage 125 max effective rng = 9m
    Shotgun_87_Combat damage 110 max effective rng = 10m
    Shotgun_Cleo damage 120 max effective rng = 12m

    Grenade launchers (Weird caveat is all the underside grenade launchers do 1000 damage but every other grenade launcher does 400 damage?)
    AssaultRifle_556_203 damage 1000
    GL_Cleo damage 400

    Hope this is helpful for someone. Looks like majority of the CLEO guns do best in-caliber damage.

    Edited because I forgot some guns. I also decided to add Max effective range (beyond this range the weapon will start to lose damage per meter; rate of loss is variable per weapon) to give you an idea of the ideal operating ranges for these guns.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
    scratchieepants, Theo SoD and Beakie like this.
  6. Theo SoD

    Theo SoD Starting Off

    I love these sort of threads, keep up the good work, I found this all very useful!
  7. This thread looks dead time wise but i guess this is the right place to put my comment which is not against what QMJS said but maybe parallel with it:
    I got this Idea about melee damage/kill chance that needs checking by players but 2 reasons almost made me sure about it, IDEA: different weapons from the SAME Class/Category have different effect or chance of kill(critical hit chance?!?). reason 1 game has a total physics based attribute like no other games Example: I can shoot a GAS tank from above the survey point and the metal tank gets punctured and i see explosion BUT I don't seem to ever be able to headshot >kill zombies from above high survey points I see they get hit right in the head and get knocked down/staggered but no kills after multiple shots and the physics for car hits and car damage intake and also the physics introduced/used for simply pushing a zombie over the short walls/hedges/fences and seeing them land on their HEAD and simply hear their head CRUSHED . Reason 2 Experience in my personal experience with maxed level of blunt weapons mastery the CROWBAR all players use and trust is ONLY for knock down purpose which means is the REAL ultimate Blunt weapons as they are supposed to function as KNOCKDOWN weapons and that is ALL. but i get these [Pipe Threader]="A ruthless zombie killing tool." then chance of instant kill goes up like +50% and then by chance I gave it a try with [Nail Puller]="Roofing tool, very tough" and i get mainly 2 to 3 subsequent instant kills (heads crushed) then it does 1 or 2 knock down/back effect and goes back to head crusher mode again. it is I think because of the shape of the head that Nail Puller has + its weight and I'm not sure the angle it gets swinged??!!
    any way all that is what i noticed I would really liked to know someone else noticed these kinda effects as well ... just saying
    kill'em all or... ? what did u think? RUN MAN RUN!!!!
  8. Uglysori

    Uglysori Starting Off

    I believe QMJS has some theories that address the dynamics that go into melee damage in post #11 in this thread. Basically, if I am understanding QMJS correctly, there is probably no statistical difference between the one-handed blunt weapons besides overall weight and durability. Ie Crowbars, Pipe Threaders, and Nail Pullers are essentially the same. Any differences you are seeing is random variance, condition of the Zombie, traits on the Character such as Powerhouse, etc. I also updated my above posts on the Lifeline and CLEO guns to add a gun that I missed and added effective max range statistics. Any shots taken beyond that range experiences damage drop per meter.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
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  9. Hi, would you mind to share where to edit the weapon range? I.e: I want to increase the range of shotgun.
  10. SgtMBeck

    SgtMBeck Got Your Back

    I wonder where some of the logic came from in some weapon damage values i.e: the 464 brushgun using .357 mag dealing less damage than a .357 Revolver. The longer barrel on the Brushgun should translate to more damage.

    Also, I didn't realize how much the FiftySeven dominated. It blows all the 9mm, .22 and .357 Sig pistols out of the water.

    Also, anyone know the damage value of the M1 Carbine? It uses .357 Sig as it's ammo type.

    And finally where the hell are the AR's with underbarrel Grenade Launchers!? Other than the Prep Pack SKS, I haven't seen ANY
    Bob Crees likes this.
  11. OldDogF14

    OldDogF14 Here To Help

    You're not going to see them. They were removed from the loot tables before YOSE released, so you can stop looking.
    Bob Crees likes this.
  12. SgtMBeck

    SgtMBeck Got Your Back

    Son of a B.....thanks OD, means I can stop obsessing over them
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  13. Sailorwolf

    Sailorwolf Famous

    Not sure how hard it would be to add them to the loot table but you can make it so a survivor starts with one :)

    or AssaultRifle_AK_203
    Bob Crees likes this.
  14. I'm looking for info on how to translate values in items.XML if anybody has any insight. I have deduced that Recoil is on a scale of 1, so .2 is one bar, .4 is two bars, etc, and accuracy seems to be the same while encumbrance is literal, but I can't make heads or tails of the different durability numbers.

    I also wonder if these are just display values and the actual numbers that are implemented are in another file somewhere else.
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  15. QMJS

    QMJS Famous

    Most of the values in items.xml are used to handle the display values, including the DurabilityRating . For the other durability numbers, they are somewhat like the weapon's hit points, or you could look at it like a number of effective uses.

    The difference between a 0.2 and 1.0 durability melee weapons:
    Branch DurabilityCriticalMax="40" DurabilityCriticalMin="30" DurabilityMax="20" DurabilityMin="10"
    Industrial Wrench DurabilityCriticalMax="40" DurabilityCriticalMin="20" DurabilityMax="250" DurabilityMin="175"

    The difference between a 0.2, 0.8, and 1.0 durability guns:
    Pistol: 1911A1 Officer DurabilityCriticalMax="30" DurabilityCriticalMin="15" DurabilityMax="250" DurabilityMin="60"
    Assault Rifle: AKMS DurabilityCriticalMax="35" DurabilityCriticalMin="25" DurabilityMax="380" DurabilityMin="195"
    Revolver: Snub Special 22 DurabilityCriticalMax="20" DurabilityCriticalMin="20" DurabilityMax="65000" DurabilityMin="65000"

    DurabilityMax and DurabilityMin include the range before the weapon reaches damaged status (for melee weapons) or begins to jam (for guns).
    DurabilityCriticalMax and DurabilityCriticalMin include the range after they reach damaged status before breaking (melee weapons) or ? (for guns... I have never actually used a jamming gun long enough after it starts to find out if they can actually break.)
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  16. YojimBeau

    YojimBeau Famous

    They become unusable until repaired. Simply won't fire.
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